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Offline Bradyman  
#1 Posted : Sunday, February 17, 2019 8:08:26 PM(UTC)
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So wizardry is basically magic science. In my mind, this means that, like science, they learned through mostly trial and error, especially in the beginning. So here's my thought:
Animages, shamans, priests, and other mana users were around long before modern wizardry. They all had their own methods for dealing with demons who are also much older than wizardry
Animages would bind demons with their will and overwhelming mana. It is virtually identical to how the demons themselves operate, as we've seen with Exador. And because of the difficulty, they use demons much more rarely than wizards, or at least animages that mess with demons are much rarer than wizards
Shamans treat demons with respect like any other spirit that they contact, and again, do it very rarely if at all.
Priests only deal with demons in one capacity, and its not slavery, its battle, which demons can respect.
I'm assuming that there are other types of mana users that haven't come up yet, and I also assume that they don't act like wizards

So for millennia demons are rarely summoned and respected when they are, when all of a sudden, here comes the wizards.
They are thirsty for knowledge, curious about everything, and extremely arrogant. They know about demons, but haven't yet developed spells to bind them. They probably even know some true names from history or legends. But they haven't created all of the super fancy bindings with super specific names constantly mentioned in the books. I'm willing to bet that hundreds of wizard researchers died trying to create wizardly demon bindings. Which is why the successful ones are so famous. A wizard like Lenamare might have sacrificed dozens of students testing out prospective summonings. And with every failure, the demons escaped, and enraged at the attempt to bind them, slaughtered the summoner. So now, the wizards have the tales of hundreds of wizards being slaughtered, while the demons are suddenly being summoned left and right with much stronger bindings than they had ever seen before. So now two very prideful and violent groups are being given even more reason to hate each other.
Plus, it has to be much easier for a wizard to pass a binding to a student or a descendant than it is for an animage to do the same.
Oh, and there's also those rings the wizards are so fond of.

So, Tizzy, is this at all accurate, or do demons hate all summoners equally and just refer to wizards the most since they the most common summoners? And do wizards just hate demons like they do because of old legends, and not because of massacres in the early days of wizardy?
Offline Tizzy  
#2 Posted : Sunday, February 17, 2019 8:59:16 PM(UTC)
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Yep that's all generally true, perhaps a few nuances.

Shamans are a bit more nervous of demons than you indicate, but otherwise this is true. Although, again, this is also colored by race. Orc shamans are pretty much exactly how you describe shamans to be, los alfar shamans see demons similar to humans, or perhaps more rationally as enemies and evil--a lot more of this will come out in later books. The Dok alfar on the other hand are similar to orcs in outlook. But again they respect and are nervous of them because you never know exactly what mood or 'history' a demon might have. So I think it's safe to say that most shamanic groups treat demons on an individual basis, some good, some neutral, some bad, some just NFW. But, yes not that differently than other spirits--just the most dangerous kind (and later books have more on spirits).

Also, note that D'Orcs were not considered demons by the orcs. They really are more like Saints, since the orcs know where they come from and that they come from the mightiest warriors. The whole religious aspects of the Doompire were sort of a thin edged sword. Officially, the orcs are shamanistic and naturalists without worshiping gods--but that didn't mean they didn't accept the existence of gods--and Orcus rather pushed the limits on many fronts. I could go and on about the heated discussions on this topic.

The thing to also keep in mind is that there was an intermediate time period of early wizardry where there were aniwizards---who where proto-wizards emerging from animages. So the process in Astlan was several thousand years.

HOWEVER, you also need to keep in mind that the peculiar aspects of the planet Astlan also apply to the other planets in the same localverse. They have the same laws of magic, and the same myopic view of certain Earths. And some of those have had wizardry far longer than Astlan--and even in Astlan, rune magic predates modern wizardry, so a very long time ago, there were rune aniwizards that would use a combination of rune magic and animagic will to summon demons.

So your description of how animages and wizards deal with demons today is very accurate--the actual historical development is a bit more complex or nuanced and the excessive demon conjuring by various groups in Astlan and it's localverse has been going on a lot longer than what one might expect from the posted timeline for the development of wizardry. It's been going on for an incredibly long time.

But, yes, right now, and for the last thousand or so years, they've been in overdrive. Particularly in terms of the most powerful spells...those are far newer than the spells for lesser demons.

By and large, regardless of method or profession, if you force a demon to come to you and make irrational demands and try to force them to do your bidding, and don't want to pay you a living wage--they will try and kill you. On the other hand, if you request their presence nicely, and offer payment for services, you will probably live, whether or not they decide to do business with you. Obviously there are various error bars on this statement where things sort of go wrong.

Offline Bradyman  
#3 Posted : Sunday, February 17, 2019 9:06:56 PM(UTC)
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Cool, thanks, most of my post was speculation so I'm glad some was right.
I had just started re-listening to Into the Abyss, and as they were binding Tom, it just struck me that it must have really sucked developing all of those demon bindings. If you mess up a basic wind spell, either the wind doesn't blow or it blows the wrong way or a bit too hard. If you mess up a basic demon summoning, you get fed your own feet. Its pretty risky, but someone had to do it.
Offline Tizzy  
#4 Posted : Monday, February 18, 2019 5:48:20 PM(UTC)
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Well, I think that's a matter of perspective...

BigGrin

You say "sucks" but I say, sometimes a demon "catches a break."

And as to, someone's gotta do it...I am pretty sure most demons would disagree with that statement.

Of course, as you may recall, Antefalken and Damien discussed the problems with demonic procreation (specifically two demon parents) and so, from the point of view of demonic population growth, someone does need to do it. Otherwise, we wouldn't have very many new baby demons.

I guess the wizards in Astlan etc are just lucky that the Earths have a good supply of demon weed.

Shhh
Offline Bradyman  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:27:42 AM(UTC)
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By someone had to do it, I meant that it had to have happened for wizardry to reach the level it has. Obviously it didn't "need" to be done, except from the wizards' point of view.

About baby demons, that could be another reason that wizards are so hated. Wizards are much more likely to summon new demons, except for special cases like d'orcings. Shamans and animages are less likely to bind a being against its will. Especially with how the d'orcing went, it should be pretty obvious that you are dealing with just a human ( or other) that got caught by accident. Shamans especially seem a lot more likely to summon a traditional, known demon than try to bind a new one, in the extremely rare cases they need a demon ( again ignoring d'orcs).
So theres a bunch of demons running ( flying) around hating they're first masters for binding them, and then sharing their names, and pretty soon its, "all wizards are evil." Look how quickly Tom was convinced.

Speaking of Tom, Tizzy, where were you during Orcus's last battle. I've got some theories that might involve you and your monkey pal.
Offline Tizzy  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 1:55:12 AM(UTC)
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I bet you are onto something with shaman's vs wizards.

Particularly because wizards would very tightly guard the true names of demons they new. I would suspect shamans would hand them down a bit more, both to their apprentices and to others. In particular if the demon was known to be amenable to deals in exchange for payment. You could see them having an entire lore of demons to summon for certain causes and reasons.

I personally have never been summoned by a shaman, and to be honest, it's been a very long time since I've been summoned, except by my current Accursed Master, Gastrope'. I think he was the first wizard to summon me in aeons. Which is a bit odd...

I know, I know, you probably think I'm just being paranoid. It's not like the wizards have a "do not call list" for demons; do they? Sometimes it feels that way. Sad

Even if they did, I mean, why would I be on it? I'm like the most helpful demon I know!

As for where I was, well at first I was singing and leading the band, and since I knew I had to be going, I put together the set list for the rest of the battle.

I then had to head over to the Citadel to get Rede. That took me a while since, having not been there in probably six thousand years, it had changed a lot and grown a lot. So, I got a bit lost for a while. Place is like a giant maze with multiple levels. And I had to be very stealthy because, what with all the Five Sibling priests and avatars running around, if I'd been spotted, there would probably have been a freak out. If you hadn't noticed, they generally don't like demons that much.
Offline Bradyman  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 2:04:53 AM(UTC)
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you got me, I wasn't specific enough
Where were you during the battle where Orcus died, before being reborn as Tom? I think you might have had something to do with how he ended up on Earth.
I have a hard time believing that the interdiction stopped you. If there was a way to keep The Tisdale out of a plane, everyone would use it. All of the time.
I can see you saving some fragment of Orcus and taking it to earth to heal for a few millennia.
Or maybe the phoenix cycle is just that unstoppable and any killed deity will return eventually. It would explain why Tartarus is so successful.

Also, you singing thunderstruck was one of my favorite moments of the book.
Offline Tizzy  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 2:29:57 AM(UTC)
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I am so glad you like my singing! Dancing

It's odd how few people have complimented me on that. Anxious

As to where I was,
Offline Bradyman  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 2:34:26 AM(UTC)
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Thanks
I guess if you had been there( at the end). It would have come up since it would have been such a big deal
Offline Tizzy  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 2:40:32 AM(UTC)
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The key problem was none of us here today, were there, otherwise we'd know what happened.

And I can't say much more without a mega spoiler for book 4. Shame on you
Offline Korwin  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 7:36:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tizzy Go to Quoted Post
I personally have never been summoned by a shaman, and to be honest, it's been a very long time since I've been summoned, except by my current Accursed Master, Gastrope'. I think he was the first wizard to summon me in aeons. Which is a bit odd...


I may need to reread book 1, detecting a plot.
Where did you go again while Tom was on the ship?
Offline Tizzy  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 2:43:12 PM(UTC)
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A plot? Is someone plotting against me? Anxious

You mean on Asmeth's ship in book 1? Let's see, that was a LONG time ago, like 20 days or something.... Dancing Actually longer ago than that, since I am much further ahead in time than when T-A-G is writing, which is why I can recite the events to him.

Just had to do a little shopping, so ran a few errands and then rejoined them on the ship.

Offline Bradyman  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 3:45:51 PM(UTC)
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He was probably checking on a stash or field. He needs to get his cookie ingredients somewhere.
Offline Tizzy  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 4:41:27 PM(UTC)
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HEY!!!!!!

Offline Bradyman  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 10:42:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tizzy Go to Quoted Post

I personally have never been summoned by a shaman, and to be honest, it's been a very long time since I've been summoned, except by my current Accursed Master, Gastrope'. I think he was the first wizard to summon me in aeons. Which is a bit odd...


Who summoned you from Tom's cave while Boggy was telling Tom about how he killed his accursed master in chapter 27 of Into the Abyss?
Not trying to be nit-picky, I was just listening to it and I remembered this post.
Offline Tizzy  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 10:59:36 PM(UTC)
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Your memory is too good... Cursing

Hmm, would you believe it was the All Powerful Wizard Gastropus summoning me across time and space from 3,000 years in the future?

Think



Offline Bradyman  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 11:08:01 PM(UTC)
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I'd believe it was a non-wizard summoning you
or a friend
or it was a lie to sneak off somewhere to take care of some Tizzy stuff
or whatever, I was just curious
Offline Tizzy  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2019 11:28:39 PM(UTC)
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Ah, but remember, I am a fiend, I can't dematerialize like a summoning...

Actually, neither can Tom, he portals. He actually could fade once he figured it out, you basically just fade to the astral plane, but then where do you go? Having a link is very useful.

However, as a Fiend, such things are beyond my powers.

On the other hand, I can get a wizard to make me a doorbell. If I scare one enough, or pay one with something it finds valuable. Of course, what could I offer as payment? Think



Offline Bradyman  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2019 12:08:38 AM(UTC)
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cookies!! but seriously, demon weed is valuable and you have the best supply


also I just want to say how much I enjoy this series. Every character is a real person. There's no "villain" everyone is doing what they think is best. Several times during this read through I'm doing right now ( its at least my fifteenth time through, I really need more) I've wanted to stop and post here about how much I love some character, but then stopped myself. I love them all. Pretty much the only character I don't care about is Alvea, and thats just because her whole character so far is that she's sad that Rex is dead. Oh, and Trevin D'vils because I'm pretty sure she's at least part alfar and acts like a diplomat, ruining perfectly good wars with her talking.

This is the only series I can read this many times and still laugh at all the jokes and stupid situations.
So, thank you for writing this T-A-G
Offline Tizzy  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2019 1:15:20 AM(UTC)
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Super! Thanks (to me, not T-A-G)!

As you know, the characters seem real, because they are. This is a documentary of events that actually happened. I am narrating them to T-A-G and he is (incredibly slowly) transcribing them.

Actually, Trevin has no alvaran blood, but you are correct that she is not human (but she is definitely a diplomat), despite appearances. One might see her advanced age as the clue.

However, Elraith Castegones, the Senior Elder of the Grove is human and he is also centuries old, but that's because of his druidic lore. As you probably know, druids eat a lot of granola and yogurt so....

Alvea, yeah that's her main role, so far, but it's been at most a quarter month, so she's still within the legal mourning period for humans. I think, we demons don't have mourning periods.

I personally find the tin can to be annoying, but he's been useful to Tom, so....I won't eat him. But, I'm sorry, the guy tried to kill me permanently on our first date. That's rude if you ask me. Actually, I think that's a serial killer sort of thing. Although since he was trying to kill a bunch of us permanently, he's more like a mass murderer--or at least a wannabe.


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