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Offline Racue  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 12:38:19 AM(UTC)
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Is sentient animus a prerequisite for elemental interactions to generate mana? If not there ate some rather obvious cheats to generating mana being overlooked. Like vast vats of thermaphillic bacteria (like you would find in a geyser or ocean bottom lava vent) that use chemosynthesis so not only would they thrive in the abyss condition but would be easily sustained on readily available elements in the abyss then run a mild electric current through it and poof no fuss no muss mana batteries.
Offline Tizzy  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 1:25:28 AM(UTC)
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OOOOOHHHHH!!!

I love the way you think!!!

Now that we are back in business we have some job openings for mana engineers at Doom.

You are going to be very high on the list!

I just need to snail mail you a package with some stuff from my garden so that you can apply in person at Mount Doom!

Probably need to find you a wizard as well. Hmm, not sure, maybe I can get Vasselle to summon/bind/enslave you!

Offline Iume  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 1:25:32 AM(UTC)
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IIRC in bk1 it is said/implied that all life including plants have animus. It was in... the appendices? I'd need to check.
Offline Racue  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 1:56:47 AM(UTC)
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Tizzy I am a fan of like 90% of that statement I just don't particularly care to be enslaved as I am sure you know that feel.

In regards to being a mana engineer I would really enjoy that job there are just so many devious ways you can generate mana.

There is also a lot of mundane things you can do to improve on things like for example all those high tech goodies you run on electricity converted from mana you could instead run them on electricity generated geothermally or really environmentally in the abyss it lets you save on mana which you can use for other purposes.

It is all just really kinda exciting all the possibilities! Dancing
Offline Iume  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:16:04 AM(UTC)
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Excerpts from Book 1 - Appendix VI, also http://www.astlan.net/Ho...brary/AnimusandMana.aspx

"Plants and non-thinking life forms have the lowest levels of Animus; animals have considerably higher, and sentient creatures higher yet.

...

As something ages or becomes more experienced, its Animus grows.

...

Animus by its very nature attracts Mana. The more Animus a thing has, the more Mana it attracts. Some of the attracted Mana is apparently “consumed” by the Animus and the Animus grows.

...

Animus must be contained or it will quickly disperse. Larger concentrations take longer to be dispersed; thus, when a plant dies its Animus tends to go back into nature rather quickly, breaking back down to other substances and perhaps back into raw Mana.

...

Non-magical and non-magic using creatures accumulate mana and store some of it in themselves to sustain their Animus.

...

Unless something else is done with it, excess Mana simply dissolves back into nature. Certain magical spells and magical creatures are capable of harnessing this Mana before it is absorbed by nature."

This seems to imply the amount of mana generated = biomass mana generated * XP factor - mana needed for sustaining life.

Since bacteria are non-intelligent and so low mass it is very likely that the excess mana available is very low. Also the biomass of bacteria vs. the equivalent of a wizard is very very very low in comparison. It might be possible for bacteria and plants to gather a lot of excess mana that can then be harvested but I suspect the scale makes it non-profitable.

Interestingly enough this might be a method to make a self-aware Gaia planet à la Foundation series or Petaybee series. Maybe sufficient biomass results in self-aware elementals outside of the elemental planes.
Offline Racue  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:32:53 AM(UTC)
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That is a valid point Iume. It just depends on how far disparate the quantity of mana generated is. The next thing is you are viewing bacterial biomass as small which is true yet at the same time you can fit exceedingly larger quantities of that biomass in the same space for example in 50 x 50 x 50 space you can easily fit 10 to 15 times more bacterial biomass than you could wizard (since fleshy beings have so much wasted space inside having thoracic cavities and what not). So say your individual bacteria only generates 25% of the mana of what a wizards cell would be capable of you still come out about even. Mind you I have not busted out a calculator figure it out exactly but that seems to be a pretty profitable endeavor to me especially when you factor in maintenance and what not. That and bacteria require less energy for life than wizards do.

Edited by user Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:36:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Iume  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 3:04:08 AM(UTC)
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If the biomass per volume unit of a wizard is less than the equivalent volume of bacteria wouldn't that mean that the bacteria requires more energy for life than wizards?

Of course we're discounting the chaos/law aspect of things and how well it allows animus/mana to be freely accessed. More chaos = longer life generally speaking and bacteria seem to be pretty orderly so perhaps the extraction ratio of processed bacteria vs. processed elf (blended elf shakes? ewwww...) is not that great.

Also, sentience gives a mana boost and sapience even more. Bateria is neither sapient nor sentient so it given equal biomass (but I acknowledge not equal volume) bacteria creates less mana than a wizard (elf, human, orc, or otherwise).
Offline Racue  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 3:46:04 AM(UTC)
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Oh yeah I definitely agree on there being a difference in mana production ratio.

Assuming on a whole scale yes the bacteria would require more as there is more of it but I think when you break it down to the individual cell scale the requirements are less as on a whole bacterial cells are simpler with less complex processes so they are less energy intensive.

What make bacteria so great is you can easily alter and create new strains which could result in higher mana production etc. Which is harder to do on sentient organisms they tend to object to that kind of experimentation. While bacteria have no choice but to be your guinea pig for experimentation.

This is probably one of those things you would have to set up and let run to see how it works out unless you want to do all kinds of high order math with a bunch of unknown variables that you cannot find out with out several separate rounds of testing granted in the Abyss you basically have unlimited time for all kinds of interesting experiments.

Actually now that I think about it bacteria do indeed have sentience granted its exceedingly low sentience but they respond and change in accordance with external stimuli in ways plants cannot.
Offline Tizzy  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 7:39:40 PM(UTC)
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Interestingly along this line, many types of druids get their mana from plants (and animals). That is one big difference with druids (and some shamans) vs clerics. They get their mana from flora and fauna whereas priests get it from sentient races.

I would suspect that there have been druids who have experimented in this regard, not sure how many on bacteria, but many would have experience with lichen and other very small organisms. Might be able to provide some insight.

Offline Racue  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:03:10 PM(UTC)
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They would definitely be able to provide key information then. The fact that druids and shamans are able to gather mana in that fashion is at least proof of concept. Its just a question of being able to scale that up to a more industrial level in a realistically feasible fashion.
Offline Ben  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:22:05 PM(UTC)
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An interesting line of thought, especially as Wizards, Druids and Animages probably don't know anything about bacteria
Offline The Author Guy  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:38:13 PM(UTC)
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Actually, some healers (specifically animage healers and the priests of healing gods like Hendel--a healing god) would probably know about bacteria.

Not sure other clerics would, they have very straightforward rituals that they learn, much like wizards. So it's very much a 'canned'/'miracle' approach. They would not need to know. But they might have different rituals for viral vs bacterial symptoms? Maybe? Depends on the god I suppose.

Druids? The animistic/animage like ones, probably do know because they would heal like an animage healer.

Priests of Healing gods, like Hendel, I assume study medicine and healing in great depth, so I would suspect they would understand the difference between viral and bacterial infections.

Trained/experienced animage Healers would know given the way they work. They would be able to scan the body for "foreign animus" and should be able to detect it. Think back to Maelen on the ship doing healing; that is how they work at a very microscopic level. Very much like Deryni healing in Katherine Kurtz' books.

Offline NS  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 6:39:29 AM(UTC)
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ok here's a thought
we've basically got a prison full of gods/titans in the basement
why aren't we using them to generate mana
those are some pretty big batteries

also, doom may not have the whole avatar filtration system, but we should be able to purify mana somehow
maybe those big batteries in the basement are also giant filters?

also wondering if doom has a max mana capacity and how that would compare to god and pantheon pools
also wondering how dooms output rate is compared to god pools (like how fast can Tom pull mana from doom systems) b/c I see that being a big advantage b/c what does it matter if you can't throw the second punch if he's dead after the first one
also its not like anyone has run one of these things dry yet so no need to worry about gas mileage slap a race engine on there instead of the economy version
would having purer/more dense mana help or hurt that rate?
Offline Tizzy  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 5:43:39 PM(UTC)
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Heh, heh you note that we mentioned it had it's own independent power supply? Dancing

The problem is, they're just sitting there, sleeping. Not actively generating much mana, however they do produce a lot just by existing.

Doom has a very large primary mana pool and several auxiliary ones (subject to limitations on multiple MPs) (see all the crystals in the basement--these were used to create them)

The amount Doom can produce is definitely limited by the number of people there. At the moment it's very weak compared to what it used to produce when there were 25 to 30 thousand people living there, demons, d'orcs, titans, deities. Also, don't forget there were 666 Doomalogues out there generating power. Each with mana pools and thousands of people living nearby having shamanic ceremonies, parties, wars etc.

Purer mana is basically going to be higher octane, you need less of it do the same thing. This is one big advantage the gods have.

We talked about using our guests for filtering, but decided against it as the flow would not be regular enough and fluctuations would risk destabilizing them and the system. I.e. wake them up. Decided at the time it wasn't worth the risk. You really don't want to suddenly have a bunch of angry gods, titans and monsters awake and rioting your basement.

Not fun!
Offline scweeb  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 7:54:35 PM(UTC)
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So talking about Mana supply and the difference between what the current Gods have to what currently Mount Doom has. It makes it sound like the only reason Tom and the D'Orcs were on the same playing ground as the rest of the pantheon in Nysguard. Is because they were having to channel to get their mana?

It just seems like after this conflict and the current events that the Pantheon could wipe the floor with MT Doom with ease. Really the only thing keeping them on the board is that the 5 siblings do not want to kill their warden.
Offline Tizzy  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 8:49:46 PM(UTC)
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It's a bit more complex than that.

One big thing to keep in mind is that the gods really don't like deploying their resources on the material planes for a variety of reasons.

There are several things that keep the various gods at bay but the biggest is other gods. Anytime one god or pantheon gets too involved on a material plane it attracts the others and war can escalate.

I think you need to view the entire thing as a game of "Powers" and "Super Powers" not unlike conflicts between nations, particularly during the colonial era, and even during the cold war and today.

The material planes are the central power supply for the gods. It's also supposed to be "shared territory" if one pantheon starts getting too much undo influence somewhere, others will move in to stake their claims.

The worshipers on various planes are basically colonists who send valuable resources back to the "old country" e.g. outer plane. Every pantheon has its colonies from which it extracts mana. It's a balancing act.

At the moment, Doom is still weak (they are missing 20K+ warriors and 664 doomalogues), and its biggest ace in the hole is Tartarus. With Orcus gone, it was a "hope and pray to ourselves" that the system doesn't break down and people escape. Now that Tom's there? Doom once more has a key and means to open the prison and let angry people out.

As a god, you really don't want a kraken popping up on your favorite world and wiping out your largest cities.

And there are worse things than the titans in Tartarus. Notice how you haven't seen any of those eldritch tentacle gods running around in millenia? That could change.

In any event, part of the rebuilding will be rethinking old strategies and how power is distributed.

And finally, you are only starting to see what the D'Orcs can actually do. You will see much more in Book IV. I know for a fact that Ragala-nargoloth and Aarg-nargoloth are going to be making thunder and lightning in places other than the bedroom! Almost pity those alfar in their little temple on top of the dead doomalogue....





Offline NS  
#17 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2017 1:55:31 AM(UTC)
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I remember that Tom had trouble "digesting" purified/godly mana before
is that because he wasn't fully healed yet/back to spec
would other god's be able to "digest" purified mana

also is there a merit to using purified mana to create artifacts/staffs/weapons rather than larger amounts or raw mana?
does it result in a higher quality product
although if that was true it would necessitate Doom purifying its own mana b/c pheastus has access to his own anyway and volund can probs get some from pheastus if he doesn't have his own
Offline Tizzy  
#18 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:25:19 PM(UTC)
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Yes, although a lot of the digesting problem was that he was stuffed. I.e. he was stretching his mana capacity. He'd consumed too much mana, very rich mana.

So it's basically like he'd been to a mana buffet and gorged himself and was feeling very bloated and sick with too much mana.

All holy artifacts are made with purified mana, and then the priests seal it/dedicate with the god's signature/nature/etc. For this purpose think of the mana as being the paper. Purified mana would be like really good parchment that takes the ink well without bleeding, seeping and is easy to read. Raw mana would be rough, uneven and the signature would come out a bit sloppy, uneven etc.

Note that these are "feelings" that an aniimage would probably use to describe the mana. Wizards generally don't notice such things much.

This is also basically why using Tiernon's refined mana was so nice against the Unlife. It was very pure and designed to use against Unlife and for healing. When using it, he was basically acting as a cleric of Tiernon. Now that being said, if he were taught, he could learn to purify mana for himself. Phaestus obviously knows how it's done and could build purification devices.

However, after much discussion, we decided it wasn't a high priority project because it wouldn't make that much of a difference for what we did, and because Doom uses a lot more "live" recently created mana than the gods do, you'd have to do a lot of the filtering in real time, which could slow things down.

Offline GameGraphix  
#19 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:56:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tizzy Go to Quoted Post


All holy artifacts are made with purified mana, and then the priests seal it/dedicate with the god's signature/nature/etc.



Just a semi-random thought for the morning...but could the actual process of refining mana by a god's priest be actually compressing the mana and tuning it to a specific "freguency" - where each "god" has their own inherent frequency...mana that has been refined and tuned is very easy for those "in tune" with the frequency to use - for others is powerful but doesn't quite fit with their own "frequency" so they can use it but it's not the most comfortable or easy thing to do...


Thinking along the lines of physics with resonant frequencies, harmonics, etc

From Wikipedia
Quote:
In physics, resonance is a phenomenon in which a vibrating system or external force drives another system to oscillate with greater amplitude at a specific preferential frequency.

Increase of amplitude as damping decreases and frequency approaches resonant frequency of a driven damped simple harmonic oscillator.
Frequencies at which the response amplitude is a relative maximum are known as the system's resonant frequencies or resonance frequencies. At resonant frequencies, small periodic driving forces have the ability to produce large amplitude oscillations, due to the storage of vibrational energy.



Reconance

This would fit with why certain times or phases of the moon effect spells for wizards...

To be a mana wielder - need to be able to detect the basic mana frequency........the mana frequency changes over time due to factors such as different phases of the moon, etc - so some times it is easier to cast spells at certain times of the luna month then others...

Also, alternate universes have a different inherent base mana frequency - hence the mana / magic works differently in each universe - and some the frequency is so different that mana wielders can not connect with the frequency - hence tech universes

Edited by user Thursday, January 12, 2017 10:07:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Tizzy  
#20 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2017 11:21:39 PM(UTC)
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Wow. Don't know, it's all science to me!

Yes, I think that is pretty close to what they are doing. We also know they transmit it encrypted streams to protect it from being hijacked.

Although for wizards, it might be a bit more complicated....although it could be, I'm not a wizard. Let me think.

As a layman, my understanding is that the mana is relatively neutral, and it's the element and its astrological associations, along with the caster's that makes the difference.

But I suppose that would work as the underlyer.

For example a person with a water sign is a bit better with water magic than say fire magic, and someone with a water sign doing a water spell during a water period of time has the best chances of getting it right.

So, yes, it could be the harmonics adding up, if the elements had associated frequencies as well. Mathematically it would make the most sense.
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