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Offline The Author Guy  
#61 Posted : Monday, August 11, 2014 3:19:24 PM(UTC)
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Your first examples.

I don't disagree with them. Certain things require concentration, a lot of them do. Not all things do. In particular, as I keep saying, some spells you have to concentrate on their entire duration. Others you do not.

Summoning a demon for the first time, and ideally any time, requires concentration. Once the demon is there and in wards, you don't necessarily need to concentrate, at least if it's behaving. Should the demon decide to try to break free of its bonds, a smart wizard would probably get back in the game, prepared to dump more mana into the spell. But they don't have to. They could just trust that it's strong enough and see what happens.

This is basically what was going on with Hortwell, he got lazy and wasn't paying attention and was doing sloppy spell casting and was just sort of whipping wards up perfunctorily without being sure they'd hold his demon in.

Again...some things take concentration, some don't. Some spells are set it and forget it, others are not. Depends on the spell.

Please recall when Jenn bound the guy in the forest. She put enough mana into the spell to hold the guy until people from the castle could get back.
She took the kids home, and left the guy, guards came back later to retrieve him.



As far as crafting. I'm not saying that it doesn't take that much concentration, it does. What I'm saying is that by using magical tools and spells/process the level of concentration is not as insurmountable as you make it sound. What I'm saying is, yes they can make glass tables. Wizardry doesn't remove all concentration, it just lessens it. Makes it doable.

A driver of a car does not have to worry about making sure the pistons are turning, or that gas is flowing into them, or any of the other details of what makes the car go. Same for flying carpets.

Hortwell: Yes, he was incredibly lucky. Recall though that he's had this demon for decades, the sloppiness probably didn't set in until much later, by which time Z had gotten to appreciate his accursed master. And, not all demons are outright bloody fiends, despite the bad press they get.

Yes, there is a lot in those early sections that should have been written better...but part of it is time...the longer things go unchallenged the more set in stone they become. There is a lot at the beginning of the book that I wanted to redo, but without sufficient critical feedback, you sort of get stuck in a hole and can't see what needs to be done.



How should you not know about Thaumaturgy? Actually you really aren't supposed to know that now, unless you've been around the multiverse in similar universes a lot. Hopefully I'll do more on this later on. I'm really explaining the logic here behind what happens (in this forum), I don't really expect everyone to get all the logic from just the first book. Once it's done, and once people really know the universe, the logic should then be consistent.

Thaumaturgy is actually the most practical of disciplines. Thaumaturgists can always get jobs, they just aren't super high paying jobs. People pay more for flashy stuff. Just like in our world. Companies making guns and tanks get more money than people making ropes and building houses etc.

For some odd reason, nobility are much more willing to pay up to blow up their foes than to rebuild things. Yes, building a fortress is good work for a thaumaturge...but they are then working along side carpenters and other craftsmen that nobles look down on.

Same with seeing the future, or having a flying carpet or magic mirror, or a magic suit of armor.

From a healing perspective, there is a lot of competition. Priests, Healers (Animages), Thaumaturgists and Druids even. The first two are often a bit more direct. Plus there is the "charity effect" You have to be pretty cold blooded to charge people in pain and suffering high fees. This sort of drives the prices down.

Thaumaturgy is earth magic, plant magic. It's slower moving, longer lasting, but not flashy or exciting. Thaumaturgy is very powerful, and can last a long time with lower mana input, but it's not fast. The perception of it among the populace is less awe-inspiring/impressive. Thus people assign less value to it...wrong...but that's what happens.


Offline Rosver  
#62 Posted : Friday, August 15, 2014 11:03:22 PM(UTC)
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Well, the quotes rather give the impression that using magic needs intense concentration but there is almost none about magic not needing one. Its the impression that is important. Might have been made clear from the onset.

Jenn and the man situation is also curious. Why would Jenn need to make the spell last longer? I thought the spell was to move the roots and make them bind the enemy. But after that there should be no need for further magic. Roots are quite strong materials by themselves. A man bound in roots is very unlikely to escape. I was also a bit surprised when Jehanna admonished Jenn about leaving the prisoner because what Jenn did is more than enough.



As for craft, I don't see how magic reduces the mental effort. Craft requires great focus by themselves, magic also requires mental effort, combine the two and you might as well double the required mental energy. I'm not saying that it makes it impossible, I just say that in general not just the glass table (which is quite a feat) magic in production isn't really that much of an improvement. Yes they can make better products but that doesn't mean that the products made by magic is cheaper (incredibly cheap!) than ones made by hand. For all business sense, objects made by magic should have been more expensive, the law of supply and demand and all, not to mention the effort to make them.

"A driver of a car does not have to worry about making sure the pistons are turning, or that gas is flowing into them, or any of the other details of what makes the car go. Same for flying carpets."

You are really set on the car analogy. A car standing still is very different from a carpet hovering in place. Turn the car off and it would stay in place, not so with carpets.

It may seem easy but hovering in place is quite difficult. Birds can't even do that where flying is their specialty. Don't expect that from modern air vehicles (hovering airplanes?). Hellicopters would wobble around when it hovers. The most perfect hovering that I could see with modern crafts are the tiny helicopter robots in many science channels. But then they require lot of processing power and quite sterile surroundings to do so.



Thaumaturgy. There is some information in the special pages and with the small info there, Thaumaturgy is quite an impressive magic.

You might also confuse payment from profits. For example, matches are quite cheap but millions of it is consumed every day, so even with small profits per match, the huge number consumed would result to very big profits. On the other end, airplanes gives quite large margin of profits, but then the demand for them isn't really as big, just thousands a year. So, in business sense, even if Thaumaturgy is somewhat lowkey compared to others that shouldn't be a barrier against big profits.

As for the nobles, they aren't the only ones who have the money. Even if other people have less wealth than the nobles, their sheer number is more than enough to compensate. That is why in products, like books, how many is sold matters a lot. Authors and publishers would love to make and sell a best selling book. More sold, more profits.

Also even if Thaumaturgy is rather dull compared to other field of magic and is relatively less valued compared to others, that doesn't mean it has little value. Relative, absolute there is a difference. This coupled with the fact that magic wielders are rare and most it seems doesn't choose Thaumaturgy. High demand and little supply, and by the law of supply and demand that makes for quite a profitable venture.

I think you should also clear up about the business side of magic wielders if this is going to be important in your book.
Offline Maou  
#63 Posted : Saturday, August 16, 2014 5:04:07 AM(UTC)
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Since wizards cast structured spells would it be possible for an animage to
A. warp the spell structure to alter or render it inert
B. absorb the mana to render it inert
C. act as a virus to try and take control of or destroy the spell
D. loosen/ disrupt/ rupture the spell structure to render it inert

Wizards don't have complete control of a spell, they set things up and let work from their in some instances so could it be possible to then mess with it. A wizards spell also needs concentration and is delicate so somebody deliberately trying to alter a forming spell should have little effort doing so, but with no idea of the aftereffects.

I ask as wizardry is a form of mana-engineering and from what I know it is much simpler to destroy or disrupt something that has been engineered than it is to either build or maintain it. I state this as a possible reason as to why Animages might not have expressed more interest into in the past. Wizards are best suited to fight opponents whom they have studied in detail so they can prepare appropriate counter measures and for fortifying positions with wards for security. Wizards by trade are not spontaneous and are more vulnerable in a situation for which they are unprepared. Not powerless, but less in control of a situation. Animages however display a relatively level spectrum of strength in most environs dependent on their specialties.

Offline Korwin  
#64 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2014 5:35:01 AM(UTC)
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Wizardry spells are optimized so it would seem hard to mess with them on the fly.
On the other hand, if someone is both an Animagus and Wizard and he knows the spell, it should be possible.
Offline Rosver  
#65 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2014 7:28:05 AM(UTC)
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Maou, quite interesting concepts. From what I can see, magic is done through Links. Tom seems to be able to see this links, interact with them and even manipulate them, so Tom might be able to do those things. It's not clear if other magic users could do what Tom can but it is quite implied that only Tom seems to be able to do so. Some sort of ability?

"I ask as wizardry is a form of mana-engineering and from what I know it is much simpler to destroy or disrupt something that has been engineered than it is to either build or maintain it."

This isn't exactly true. Some things like locks, safes, bulletproof glass are difficult to destroy. So are buildings, tunnels, etc. These things are engineered to last. But then there are objects that isn't designed with durability in mind. These objects aren't engineered to sustain large amount of stress. Of course, one has to wonder how magic users design their magics and how they make their magics (like spell of the magicaly locked book) resist any influence of external magic.

Offline Maou  
#66 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2014 1:53:53 PM(UTC)
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It is true that wizardry use linkmastery to a specialized extent, so it is quite possible that somebody proficient in this skill could be a wizard bane. A pyromaster is pretty much immune to fire and electricity as a specialization of pyromastery. So by extension a linkmaster should have complete control over links and not be much effected by them directly. Effectively a demon capable of ignoring commands, bypassing wards, and causing spell failure to increase in their vicinity.

Wizards likely have prepared defenses for their spells, but animages are rare, and those who obtain mastery of a field are uncommon. Since wizards use links anyways, linkmastery is likely not sought after to any great degree. They could not shape magic to the extent a wizard could, but if they learned wizardry and linkmastery they could likely customize spells on the fly to some extent, make it more difficult or impossible for other wizards to form the links needed for their spells, and become one of the most wanted targets for wizards to try and eliminate.
Offline Rosver  
#67 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2014 1:48:29 AM(UTC)
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Yeah. Tom seems to have those abilities. Tom seems to have an affinity to magic links being able to see, touch and even manipulate links mentaly. The possiblity that he could break demon links, change their structure and even take advantage of it is great. He already taken advantage of the links that the Rod's priest have in his fight against them.

Your observation about wizards and animages seems to be insightful too. I always see the wizards with their need for 'props' (as Edwyrd describe it) to quite a hindrance. Animages might be more less extensive but their more freeforming magic and flexibility is a great advantage in a lot of situations.
Offline Tizzy  
#68 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:58:39 PM(UTC)
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Yep, I would agree with all the last several post/responses.

It's hard to interfere with a spell (other than distracting the caster and getting him/her to screw up--definitely the best option). The spell itself is very optimized and tight, you'd definitely have to be an expert wizard and animage, and have prepared "tricks" for well known spells to be able to thwart them.

Link Mastery (animages) and Link Spells are very critical in anything requiring bindings and connections between objects and/or creatures.

In wizardry you don't notice it as much other than for say familiar links, conjury etc, but that's because it's built into all the spells that need it.

Basically non-target spells don't need links (e.g. fireball, lightning bolt---only for guidance so optional, gusts of wind, direct elemental work)

Back earlier, I don't think I said Thaumaturgy is weak, it's just perceived that way since it's slow acting and not flashy. However, gravity isn't exactly impressive either until you are Sandra Bullock floating off into outer space. Or the fact that it's the only thing holding the universe, and the earth together.

Thaumaturgy has some real weakness in combat compared to most other disciplines (it takes a lot of time, mana and effort to generate an earthquake or summon a volcano...however if you've got the time and mana, about everything else starts to pale in comparison)
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